Shame
Sun, 6/26 8:06PM 1:09:09
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
book, realise, shame, feel, people, orgasm, porn, journey, women, sex, pleasure, thought, conditioning, big, absolutely, wanted, read, trauma, head, knew
00:03
Hi, Natalie.
00:05
Hello, my love. How are you?
00:07
I'm great. I am very, very pleased to have you on the tapping into podcast. Welcome.
00:13
Thank you, I'm happy to be here really, really happy to be here.
00:17
Oh, you're so kind, you have a book coming out. And I was very lucky to have been sent a pre pre version. And I, I don't want to come across as like a total fangirl, but I can handle it, you can handle it. Okay, good. I have to say, I was blown away and surprised by the book, by the content, by the vulnerability by the depth of your own awareness by also how much it resonated with me, and what it brought up in me. And now I can't relate to a lot of your story. But it just shows me that so many women will relate to a huge part of what's in here. And I think this is a book of the generation and a book of women that all women need to read right now. And I don't say that lightly.
01:26
Like, cry, like this podcast, I seriously. But you know what, I'm getting chills all over my body, because that's exactly what I hoped. Yeah. And hearing that feedback from a real person is the most incredible feeling in the world. It really is. Thanks.
01:48
Oh, Bless you, bless you, because I know what's gone into creating this book. And it's tears and trauma and grief and shame and the journey that you have been on to bring this to birth this, which I mentioned to you the other day, and we'll talk about that later, like I feel is your gift to the world, like your legacy. And it's a privilege to be able to read it and to it and to talk to you about it today. So thank you,
02:22
thank you, that really, really does mean the world to me. And I'm not just saying it's, it really does.
02:30
I have a lot of Irish listeners and I live in the UK. Now. I've been here for many years, but a lot of my audiences in Ireland and we have all grown up with the Irish Catholic suppression. And so that's the part that I really resonated with a lot, you know, the, the good, the good girl confusion that you described, and the pressure to be one thing, but also the pressure to be something else and the disconnection that we have with our womb space and our pleasure centre. And there's so much to unpack here. And like,
03:08
I talk about my Irish Catholic family a bit in there. Yeah. And the repression that has filtered down to me. Yeah, yeah,
03:18
yeah, the ancestral trauma piece of us and I work with ancestral trauma all the time with individual clients. It's huge. It's huge. And they, how you unpick the conditioning that we've been through as women. And as women of particular culture or race backgrounds, of women in a particular a patriarchal system, for example, the Catholic school system, through to navigating and wanting to be loved. Got the it's just, it's just mega and I wanted to start with reading a paragraph that I just thought would would get us on course, to talking about the kind of the big topic Okay, so I'm gonna read this now. So I'm reading my yearbook back to you, you're a stranger. Okay, so I felt shame about having sex in the first place, and what that meant, or what that might mean for my sense of goodness, I felt shame about sexual experiences that happened to me without my consent. I blame myself for my role in them. I felt shame about enjoying pornography, I felt shame about finding it hard to reach orgasm, and shame about wanting to orgasm at all. I felt shame for my fantasies and desires that broke the mould of what I thought I should want. I was deeply ashamed of what my body looked like and wouldn't even get don't even get me started on how shameful I believed it was to touch myself. Sex and shame became so intertwined that I didn't even know it was possible to separate them. I just think that is an amazing paragraph that Every single woman is going to resonate with and I think there's, there's gold in here to help people on pick their own traumas and their own,
their own their own journey. So my question to you is, how did you come to a place of such awareness, that shame was the biggest, or maybe it wasn't, but at big, overarching emotion that you have been carrying for a long time.
05:31
I think it was through starting to write the book, it wasn't the most apparent thing initially. And then through the process, it became like, Oh, my God, like the umbrella that overshadows all of this is. And it just in my writing, it just became so obvious. So that then really helped to knit everything together, and just give the book a bit more of a focus. And it and yeah, I mean, it worked really well. But I didn't really understand what the point of the book was, while I was writing it. Until I started to unpick what I was saying, and yeah, get it all. Like it had to just like, everything just had to come together in my head. It's not easy when you're writing because, you know, you've got something to say, and I am very, very happy that I finally feel like I've found my voice. And this is this is
06:44
the this is the process. This is what you want to say, yeah.
06:47
This is it. I mean, it's terrifying. Like, absolutely fucking terrifying. Because I'm literally laying my heart on the line to be judged. Yeah. But, you know, what can we do? I feel it feels terrifying and liberating in the game, you know. So I just know that everything. On the other side of comfortable is where the growth happens. And I mean, God writing this book has been the most monumental amount of growth even continued after writing the birth clause, I had to have quite a lot of therapy through writing the book because it was bringing up some stuff. Yeah, that I wasn't prepared for. And I didn't even realise was wrong. In the book, I talk about my first boyfriend. Where, which is something that I didn't really understand or start to unpick, and until I started writing about it. And I had a, you know, I had a therapy session, and she says, she said, you know, that is statutory rape right now, don't you? And I was just like, oh, how do I deal with this? How? Yeah, like, stuff like that, you know, revelations that come to you, as you start to think and go through your story is huge. So there's a lot of healing a lot of growth that has happened, but I have I have, I have a really good therapist.
08:32
Luckily, yeah.
08:35
I have therapy with certain members of my family to, to get through the book and actually come to a place where I'm really happy for it to be published. So yeah, it's been quite a
08:52
quite a journey. Yeah, gosh, I can imagine like, what was your intention with writing the book? So obviously, you started wanting to write something, but then and then and the umbrella then kind of took shape? And you You realise it was? The your overarching theme was shame. But what was your original intention?
09:14
Well, I knew that my life had been quite colourful. I don't know. I don't know what the what the right term is. Yeah.
09:27
I knew that I wanted to speak about stuff that I had never been able to speak about, because other people felt shame around it. And I knew that it was holding me back in terms of being a fully functioning fully, not fully self aware, but more self aware, have more self understanding. I knew that there was stuff that I needed to get out there that would resonate with a lot of have women? Yeah, like sexual trauma. So that was my initial thing. I knew that I had a story to tell that would help women. Yeah. And then the connection to shame has sort of just become very obvious.
10:17
Yeah, it really pulls it together quite well. And had you had your public key to like a publisher ready for it? Or did you just write it as? This is something I need to do for me? And if whatever happens afterwards, after that is great.
10:36
Sorry, what do you mean?
10:38
So? So did you have? Did you have a publisher ready to, to want and you know, approve your book? Or didn't you write it for your own healing journey?
10:50
I had been thinking about writing the book for years and years and years and years, I had approached various publishers about it. And they were like, you've got to narrow the focus. This is like, how, like, I had so much to say, and didn't know how to get it all in. So eventually, someone just said, look, I think there's something here, but you need to work on the focus. And so yeah, I just I got some help. With a
book agent, they put me in touch with a book agent. And then she just helped me sort of get my proposal together. And we knew that the overarching theme was going to be around sex sex at best. Yeah. And then it sort of just developed from there.
11:45
Yeah, amazing. So are you okay to tell us a little bit about the traumas that I suppose have shaped you? In particular, there's obviously a very big early life trauma. how was how did it come about for you to actually identify that as a key player in all of this?
12:10
Not going to talk I'm not going to go into detail on
12:13
Yes, of course. Yeah. Everything.
12:17
Everything in the book because it's so sensitive. Anything that involves anyone else, as in a victim has to be I, you know, I was very careful about getting everything signed off. Yeah. I have to be very careful in interviews, if not saying something is either re victimising or reef traumatising. Anyone else. Yeah. So I won't go into detail on it. But I do you know, a traumatic event happened to me. And somebody else when I was really young. And how did I know it was significant? Because it's always, always always been there. It's always been. I mean, it's always been at the forefront of my mind. But I have expertly tried to push it to the back of my mind. Yeah. And it's something that was very rarely spoken about. A couple of times, it has been spoken about at a family gathering, when we've all been really, really pissed. And then there's just lots of tears, and nothing productive has ever come out of any conversations. Yeah. And I just knew, I just knew that there was so much of healing to be done there, because it has really shaped my life,
13:42
of course. And then you eventually brought that into therapy, didn't you? And you were able to admit to somebody else that this was happening was that was that a life changing? moment for you in terms of breakthrough?
13:58
It was petrifying. It was definitely the start of starting to very, very hesitantly open that door. Because you know, when you have something so traumatic happen, you really don't know if you are strong enough to go there. It feels like it feels like a big can of worms that you just don't know if you're ready to open. So, I knew I needed to open it. I know I wanted to open it. And what I know now is that if you
do tentatively at the right time, start to crack open that box. You will survive in the right environment. With the right support. But, you know, the timing has to be right. And no one should feel pressure. There should be no expectation to do it. If you're not ready,
15:16
but the growth and the journey thereafter that you have experienced was worth the pain of the revisiting the box. Yeah.
15:26
Every single minute. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's, it's, you know, I could talk about it. Now, if I wanted to now have connection with that child, self, I had no connection, I was very disconnected. I was an observer observe, I can't say that word. And, and that was a protection, you know, coping mechanism. That yeah, I now lost my point.
16:05
So you've kind of you start, you open that box, you've moved through that space, you know, what you were held and supported through that journey? And then did you kind of go back to other parts of your childhood? And start to question that? Or was it more when you were writing the book that those things came up? And you thought, oh, gosh, I also need support here and there and?
16:32
Yes, yes. A bit. A bit of both? Really? Yeah. I think, after my divorce, that's when I started to really be curious about looking at my patterns and behaviours, and understanding them because I wanted to know, you know, what motivated me to picking the partner I picked to having the kinds of fights or arguments that I had, how, how has my experience conditioned me? And how can I start to make better choices?
17:19
Right, so yeah,
17:23
so it was a combination, really, because after Yeah, after my divorce, I was then like, I need to have some counselling. And not counselling, it was like psychotherapy is yeah, it was significant. And it was a very, very big investment. And I realised how privileged I am to, you know, be able to invest in myself, but it was the best investment I've ever made. Lately, and so, so then, I think therapy sort of almost enabled me to really pursue the book writing in an authentic and present manner. And, and yeah, through the book writing, I have then continued to unpick, unpack and, and heal. It's an ongoing process. I always say
18:24
to people, I will be healing on my deathbed, I'll be letting go. The last little bit of emotion I'm carrying, I'll be I'll be tapping away. So the journey kind of from your early chart, your early trauma, through to the conditioning then received at school and the the need for validation that you were experiencing the need for love the need to belong, how did that lead you then into some difficult situations that then turned into like sexual sexual challenges like different difficult experiences?
19:08
I think exactly what you said there was this, there was this there was this feeling of not feeling complete. There was like this missing piece there was this, you know, hope that somebody was going to be able to complete me Save me. Just make me feel something, you know. And I went through my whole life like that. So therefore, if you go through life like this, you are making judgments not from a place of wholeness and Hild you know, you're making decisions based on wanting to be Love wanting to be validated, there was a very big hole in my heart that just wanted someone to be proud of me. And, you know, and I was desperate for their approval always. And that, you know, when you're a kid, and you want that from a parental figure, it's that unconditional love that you are craving, which you hold in your body, usually for a long time into your adulthood. And until you start to understand it, and project it then on to other people who you're in significant relationships with. And the problem with that is, other people are not your parents, other people are not there to give you unconditional love. That's the job of a parent, not the job of a partner. I really hate this. This notion that we are supposed to give other adults unconditional love. No, we're fucking not. If a person is abusive, if a person is horrible, no matter what their background, no matter what understanding we have of it, we are not supposed to sit there and put up with it. So love is not conditional love should be about mutual respect. And, you know, I was I was hankering after that, and looking for love in all the wrong places for the wrong reasons. So, yeah, you know, that dictated a lot. And
21:46
I think that is what's going to resonate with every single woman.
21:51
Yes. Yes, I think so. There's this there is of the this desire for valid and I don't know if you had two parents, who were extremely loving and emotionally immature? No. I feel like my instinct is, is that from a very young age from the conditioning that we get from fairytales is that we need to be saved. We need to be looked after. And you know, we can't do it without a man coming to pick us up and and take us off on his horse.
22:52
I totally, totally agree. The the interesting part. For me, it's like where, where we as women want validation, want love. But we then confuse sexual activity and service to men as a way to feel loved? How did you? How did you experience your teenage years in that respect? Because I know you do
How did you? How did you experience your teenage years in that respect? Because I know you do
detail it in the book, which is it's just really interesting.
23:31
So that again, how do I
23:37
let me just rephrase.
23:40
I just I just need to
23:41
Yeah, of course, of course. What was your view of sex in, you know, the early teenage years when you were craving, love and attention and, you know, validation.
24:03
I think I used sex as a tool of manipulation and power. And I knew that as a woman if I withheld or gave this gift, I guess, that it gave me some sense of power, which isn't really power. But that, that makes it a commodity, then it's not something that is a mutual experience of love and pleasure and, you know, coming together it's it's much more warped than that. And so I was unable to really connect with my own pleasure and my own wants and desires and needs. It was all about being of service to a man, making sure he was sexually satisfied. So then I would receive the love that I was so desperately craving. Next was a performance for me. It was, you know, I learned all of my best techniques from porn. I was a really good actress. Yeah, it wasn't about me. It was really not about me. It was just something I had to do. I had to get through in order to satisfy them.
25:40
And you disconnected from the whole process, didn't you? Like take your mind out of the whole thing?
25:46
There was nothing. Yeah, nothing going on. It was just like, All right, then.
25:52
25:52
shopping lists going off in your head?
25:55
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, who's gonna have an orgasm? When you're thinking about what to cook for dinner? It's not it's Yeah. Fertile of environment.
26:07
No, no. And when did you realise what age were you? Did you realise? Like, actually, I don't want to live like that anymore. I've had enough performing enough so of service.
26:18
Not until I don't think until I was in my 30s. If Wow, honest. I think having children was monumental for me, I found that they really helped me to start to question everything that I was thinking. I was starting to see it through sort of on unaffected eyes again, you know, I was like, hold on. Should I be thinking that about my body? Should I be thinking that about sex? Do I want my children to have pleasure during sex? Do I want them to be doing this performance? You know, there was so much that I was then like, oh, shit, like, if I don't want this for them? How am I going to stop this cycle? The only way I can do that is by working on myself. And that was quite a big revelation. And hopefully, you know, you don't need to have kids to have that revelation.
27:30
That's true. That would be good. If you could do that before.
27:33
Exactly. Yeah.
27:36
So how do you So you found this awareness then and the something clicked and kind of the big picture of of potential maybe a woke for you
27:47
know, burnout? It's not okay. Not a light bulb moment. I mean, yeah, lots of little light bulb moment.
27:57
27:57
Coming together. Yeah. Okay, so how did you, though, because obviously, you're in a very different place now. So what were the steps that you took because this is where I think people will be able to resonate with and the shame involved in what you overcome on this little journey now.
28:17
Okay, I think one of the pivotal moments was after I gave birth to my first daughter and looking in the mirror and really hating what I saw mourning the woman that I was before I had children coming to terms with the My body was forever changed. And then having to work on that. I think my my disgust and my shame about how my body looked led to me going on a journey of wanting to you know, really get in touch with my body again and connect. So masturbation was a big part of that. Owning my own pleasure actually, just knowing that I had a right pleasure was, you know, really mind blowing? Yeah. Then when I started to give myself orgasms, I was like, Oh, my God, like, the power I thought I had in trying to use sex as a commodity for men is fuck all compared to the power of the orgasms. I was able to give myself.
29:33
Who needs man?
29:34
Exactly. Oh, I did incredible and just I went on this whole journey of just discovering that I could actually I could fulfil myself. I could be okay. I didn't need somebody else. I didn't need a man to make me whole. Um, And it was all this, it was all about reconnecting with my body again. Yeah. It's all about being present, not in my head. And just finding that there's actually so much peace in being able to reconnect.
30:18
And why do you think women don't talk enough about masturbation and self pleasure?
30:25
Because we've been told it's dirty, and it's wrong, and it's shameful. And that we have internalised that, you know, especially if you come from any sort of religious background, you're told not to touch yourself, and something disastrous might happen to you. And it's just so fucked up. It's that it's the most beautiful thing in the world. It's free. It's pleasurable, it's not traumatic. Flow, what you like and what you don't like it will help you communicate with a partner about what you like. And believe me partners like to know, they don't just, I mean, I'm generalising here, but don't just like pumping away. They actually do want to make you feel good, too. Yeah, yeah. So I don't understand what is so wrong about it. But my feeling is, is that female sexuality, female pleasure has been controlled for centuries.
And it is a form of control. And it it hooks us in a box and stops us from wanting more from being selfish. And we have just had this label of being of service to others. And that is a very, very heavy burden to carry. Absolutely. I think is unfair. Very, very fucking unfair.
32:01
Yeah. So I am in my head. Now I'm thinking that sex and sexual pleasure and enjoying sex is the one of the biggest acts of rebellion that we could actually take.
32:13
Absolutely. Even now, like, we are such an evolved society, right? Even now, if I post pictures of myself half naked on Instagram, straightaway, I will lose hundreds, if not 1000s of followers. Oh, wow. And I get it, it triggers people, people don't like to see women owning their body. People don't like to see confident sexual beings, especially if you're a mum. But you know, you're completely right. It's the biggest act of rebellion. And to me, it's, if we don't push those boundaries, if we don't own it, and we don't start to say, Hold on, this ain't working for me, then nothing is ever going to change. But it's difficult. It's difficult, we are brought up to be the foot soldiers. Totally and patriarchy. And so therefore, the judgmental side of us that we didn't even realise has been put on us. We're like, Oh, my God, I wish she'd put it away. Or, you know, I can't believe she's wearing that, you know, you can see everything. It's like, well, she's just got a body and she is just, you know, walking around in what she was born with. And there's nothing wrong with that.
33:42
Now, and, you know, you're mirroring back to people their deepest fears. Absolutely. And, and triggering them and, and also, perhaps triggering them to recognise their prejudice and their judgments and their conditioning. And so many people aren't ready to face that or they don't, you know, they're so far removed from being self aware. But some days, you know, it'll just come in, hit them on the head wanted and eventually might, might get through.
34:16
Exactly. Listen, I'm not coming at it from a patronising No, of course not. Yeah, because I have also felt judgmental about other women. It's like, it's so inherent in Yeah, really off ball. But yeah, I think just developing that self awareness has really enabled me to let go of my judgmental nurse which still rears its head.
34:45
Yeah, of course. I mean, no one's perfect, right. No one's perfect. Yeah,
34:49
and and we have to be compassionate and forgiving about our own. Conditioning
and and we have to be compassionate and forgiving about our own. Conditioning
35:00
Yeah, yeah. While you were going on the masturbation journey, what question I have is, did you tell your friends and your closest confidants that you were rediscovering that about yourself? Or was was your masturbation journey to begin with? A secret of affair?
35:20
Absolutely, I would never have held a soul when I started. I actually thought that I was gonna get sent to hell and that I was going to, like, I thought people would think I was a terrible person. Yeah, they knew. You know, it was really like starting, I started to just discover myself. But I felt really bad about it. Yeah, that about it. And then only slowly over time, did I start to question Hold on? Why am I feeling bad about something that is affecting no one else and making me feel good? Why? Yeah, and it is really hard to take away. The shame. That is, is there for women with regards to touching themselves and failing myself as the title of the book? Yeah. Got that in a bit slicker. But yeah,
36:16
no, it was perfect. Yeah, because it reminds me of my journey with touching myself. And that that started very young. And I didn't know what I was doing. I felt pleasure down there. And I would like, rub up against furniture and stuff. And
36:40
maybe do Yeah, I used to hump Teddy's. When. But then you realise what you do. And you're really fucking good. So I'm going to continue. Yeah,
36:52
yeah. And then. And then we got to a point where I would feel guilty having an orgasm. Like there to where we're synonymous, like I have an orgasm, and then I'd feel shame afterwards. And that, that will be even with somebody else, someone in a, in a relationship with and not just kind of, you know, there was no reason why I should have felt guilt. But I felt guilt and I haven't unpacked that I haven't on, I haven't looked at that. And that's something that the book was brought up. For me, it's like, which is great, because there's an area for me to revisit. There's a version of me, who still holds shame. Like I remember finding, I know, you talked about porn, that you were exposed to pornography, quite young. I found a sex book in the house. And I think a lot of my guilt and shame stems from finding that book. And I admitted it to my parents. And they were you know, very, obviously very mature about it, and kind and everything. But I still felt this very heavy. Shame. And tell me about your exposure to pornography, and now your relationship with photography, because I never knew what you have found existed, like, I just have blocked off pornography as something men looked at that's highly addictive, and causes trouble. And it's like in this bad box.
38:23
Yeah. Well, you know, porn is demonised. Rightly so for, you know, exploitation of women. And for being, you know, very, from the male perspective, something that a lot of women are just not really interested in again, it's it can be violent, it can be dirty, there's a lot of stuff that would make us recoil. So I had a lot of shame about liking porn, and I felt bad. I didn't know whether they, you know, the porn that I was watching was always consensual. And that was another thing you know, I fucking out. I mean, if I could stop my head, I would, you know, be amount of like, questions and thoughts and processes that is going on when I'm just trying to orgasm is ridiculous. But they're, so I was, oh, I don't know how long ago now. I can't remember. But I was introduced to ethical porn. And in particular, somebody called Erica lust who has a website and has lots of different sort of channels, I would say, and she she does porn, which is from a female gaze, and it's inclusive. There's people who look like me. There's lots of different body shapes. They are not fetishized or or glorified. It's just in a kind of his some humans has been set. And it's a really, really wonderful, kind of all inclusive, embracing free experience to watch, like without feeling guilty about it. And I think it's incredibly important to pay for porn if you like to watch porn, because you should be paying the performers, you know, the sex workers. It's a job like any other job, and it's important that we reward them with money. So that's how we can ensure that it's ethically sound consensual. Yeah, exactly. So yeah, it just, it was really enlightening to find. And that's not just the only one, there's like, loads more out there. But it's just, you know, it just feels better. If you like watching people having sex, then there is, you know, options out there that are much more much more, like geared towards women.
41:18
Yeah. And I'm kind of thinking like, how do I go from you know, being afraid of porn and I and I'm very interested in the this new world that you you've just described there. Do I just pull the plaster off and just dip dip my toe in just to see like, is this something that is for me? Or do I? How do I break down the fear? Or what am I even afraid of?
41:48
Yeah, no, well, let's, let's let's unpack that. What are you afraid of?
41:56
I'm afraid of maybe even saying to my husband that I think I would like to watch other people have sex together.
42:03
Why? What do you think? Uh, you're assuming his reaction will be? Yeah,
42:07
yeah. I'm assuming that he would then judge me for that desire. So yeah, judgement, fair judgement.
yeah. I'm assuming that he would then judge me for that desire. So yeah, judgement, fair judgement.
42:18
And you are not doing anything wrong, nothing harmful. I think it's a great conversation to have with your partner. You know, and I would suggest this conversation that you've just had today is a conversation starter.
42:38
On my podcast, admitted, I want to watch boy, he's gonna be like, Oh, Jesus.
42:44
Absolutely not. There's nothing wrong with it. Yeah.
42:48
Like a way that's the conditioning? We
42:50
do. And I'm sure well, I don't know. But I'm sure he watches porn too. So like, just just say, oh, yeah, just dip your toe in. So if you're not ready to go for full blown, like, porn watching, then there's lots of alternatives like podcasts and audiobooks. Oh, yeah. So you can make up help you to make up the kind of stories or images in your head, which might feel safer. For some people.
43:29
That's a really good point. And you also mentioned which I thought was interesting that I have never heard discussed is the the naturalness to visualise other people or other situations while you're having sex. Like that has never come into I mean, me my friends don't talk about sex. Me My husband barely talks about sex. Yeah. And and why why? You know, so many. There's a lot of work to do there.
44:04
Look, Sarah, we all we all
44:06
have. Yeah,
44:07
I know. You know me one. Yeah. But I used to feel bad for fantasising about another person or other scenario. Yeah. But the brain is conditioned for novelty. Oh, how are you going to get through sex with a partner for 20 years solid whilst only you know, thinking about them, like bad about it? And you know, you're not portrayed betraying them. You're simply your brain is trying to help you stay
44:44
in the moment in the moment. Yeah.
44:47
I think is a great way to do that. It's, you don't have to tell anyone about
44:52
it, but that you we all do it and we've just not talked about it. Let your imagination
44:56
go wild have the best world is like, in your whole life. And it's a great way. And that's the thing that as kids, we are so good with our imagination, aren't we? I'm so good at like playing these role modelling these different like scenarios and and characters in our head. And then suddenly, you know, as we get older, we tend to lose that ability or feel bad about it. And I'm like, then we need to get him back in touch with that kind of inner child that just wants to have fun in their head. Yeah.
45:37
And enjoy pleasure for pleasures sake, without any attachments and conditions.
45:44
Working hard, is it? Yeah, come back to me when we've sorted that one out.
45:54
But, you know, I think, for me, you know, having an orgasm, and actually taking control of my own pleasure has been, you know, very healing for me. But also, it is like a form of meditation for me, and I do, I do, I am able to silence out everything else now, and focus on the sensations and the experiences that are happening within me. And that's often what you know, the road blocker is to having orgasms. So it's, let's just think of it as another form of meditation.
46:38
That's mindfulness. Perfect. Exactly. So
46:43
let's like let's stop demonising it and yes, enjoy more of
46:48
it. Exactly. So to the mum, who's has a couple of kids now and is exhausted and is not really got, you know, the energy doesn't feel up for us knows that things aren't quite where they were. What did she do to start getting thoughts back on track is the self pleasure, A, because I know that like when you have sometimes when you have orgasms, the more you have, the more the more you want them, for example. So if you just started to, to maybe give yourself self pleasure that might make you them want to have partner pleasure.
47:28
Yeah, exactly. I think that's a great way to start. However, I will, I will say, that's only if you want to start feeling sexual again. Yeah, I think that a lot of pressure on ourselves. And there's also a lot of shame, about not wanting to have sex on Yeah, equal to pleasure your partner, especially after having a baby. We think we need to like jump back on the horse. Yes. 100% actually, like it's okay. It's okay not to have any sexual thoughts at all because you've got fucking leaky boobs, and because, you know, your your vulva feels like it's gonna fall out into the toilet. Like it's okay to take some time off, and not put pressure on yourself. To get back to some sense of normality. Having a baby is the most I mean, it's the most extreme sport I've ever been part of. It is. It is, you know, so hard going changes everything check your life turned upside down. And this is not to scare anyone who might be pregnant. But it I can't remember what I likened it to in my book. I think it was like a tsunami or a tornado or something like that. But, you know, you have these kind of romantic ideals about like, how wonderful it is going to be and how maternal and how romantic you romanticise it, but it's hard. And let's not put pressure on ourselves to start feeling sexual. But if you are getting those twinges of twinges of desire, I would say I think it's a beautiful way of starting to reconnect to your body. Just touch yourself. Just explore yourself don't have any sort of end goal. Yeah. In sensations. You don't need to have an orgasm. You just need to explore and and yeah, and have fun, basically, like, take away all of the pressure and just do what feels natural.
49:51
Yeah, that's beautiful. Thank you. One of the other things that you mentioned in the book that I hadn't really and never really grasped is that when we're when children are born, they are treated and assumed to be heterosexual, heterosexual, sexual, heterosexual. There we go. It's like a default that I never realised existed.
50:24
Do you mean you forgot that we were assuming? Yeah, yeah.
50:30
Yeah. But it was an assumption that you would grow up and want a man and wanted to get married and wanting to have children. And I definitely can see that changing in the world at the moment where I think sexual identity has become more fluid, and people have become more aware. And that that's amazing. Tell me a little bit about your sexual identity journey.
50:59
Yeah, I think I think it's quite Oh, do I want to go so far as saying it's quite damaging to assume that the default is heterosexuality maybe? Yeah, I think it is really important to be mindful that our children are their own person. And we play so many assumptions on our children. And it's really important to unlearn those assumptions. Because although society is getting grey and more accepting in terms of allowing I don't like using the word allowing, but it is true, allowing people to express themselves and their gender and their identity in various ways, I think, why do people need to come out? People who have this big hole, party sort of, you know, about, about the need of telling people that they like a certain person. But wouldn't it just be really cool if, if we actually was just curious and just ask questions rather than making assumptions? Yeah, no one asked for. So. And I think, my in terms of my own sexual identity, it's taken a really long sort of process to understand that is true just assumed that I was heterosexual, it's just assumed that I was going to get married. And when I was into men, I assumed it because people have put put that on me. Yeah. And I and I have learned through this whole process of self awareness that actually I did have an attraction to women, as well. And I wanted to explore that. And there was nothing wrong with exploring that. No, I wasn't going again. This invisible kind of can judgement. It did feel like that sometimes. But it was just like, oh, wouldn't it be really nice to explore that side of myself? And yes, it was it was really bloody lovely. Yeah, it really enlightening and different and magical. It was such a, it was so wonderful to have the freedom to be able to do that and not feel bad about it.
53:54
It's amazing, because I remember being attracted to one of my school friends in secondary school. And feeling Yeah, very confused by it. And obviously, at that age, and in that time, we had no one to talk to about that. There's no one there was no openness, or no conversation to be had.
54:17
It was like no understanding of it, right?
54:20
Yeah. Yeah. And there was a few little kisses a few explorations or whatever, but but then it was like,
Well, that would that was shut down. And then it's like, okay, you've done your you've had your little kiss. Now now to the boys like now now focus on the, the the job at hand. Okay. The job at hand is to find a man to settle down, have a child and so on. Yeah,
54:48
I would say that the majority of your listeners, this is anecdotal. I don't I don't have the stats for this. I would say the majority of your listeners have for about the same sex, sexual work at some point in their lifetimes, I think person Yeah, actuality is definitely on a kind of continuum, and it can change. And also, speaking to a lot of my friends, I know that a large majority of them had experiences with their friends of the same sex when they were little. And it was just an, you know, it was we were just exploring. Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes that's even happened with family members. Yes. Really understanding Yeah, what it was, and then growing up and then feeling a huge amount of shame. It's really difficult. And so I just want to, you know, help people feel okay, and normalise that, I would say a lot more, a lot of a lot more of us are bisexual than we actually really have given credit to think. And I think it's kind of a shame that we are not able to my friend likes to use this analogy of having a buffet and we're not able to explore the whole buffet table, we only go to a certain section of it. Yeah, that's really sad. And and our sexual expression has been really narrow, and very inhibited. And it would, wouldn't it just be nice to just be a lot more freer.
56:44
I tell, say, great, and I think what you're, what you're doing and what you've written, especially when you think about your daughters, and how you treat them. And, and, and teaching them about love, regardless of the gender of the other person, etc. I think even if we don't feel like we want to go there for ourselves right now, being aware of that, and not treating our children, as if they're going to be straight, would be an amazing gift to the world. And so hopefully people will be able to read that chapter and kind of question their own thoughts and their own beliefs and use it to maybe have conversations in the household or when the children are older to be here, just more aware.
57:28
Exactly, exactly. And that's all I want to do. Yeah. Questions I like to. I like to stimulate thought. And that's, that's exactly. I think what this book does,
57:40
definitely, it's like, I have to come back to this, I think another two times. Yeah, like I have I've paragraphs highlighted and things underlined the whole way through the book. And I'm actually going to buy the proper book now as well, because I want the the hard the hardcover looks so nice.
57:58
It does, doesn't it? Yeah. I am also very aesthetically minded, motivated as well. Yeah. It really was important to me that if it was on a coffee table, it looks good. Yeah. Like the outside and the inside?
Yes. Yeah, I
Yes. Yeah, I
58:19
totally agree. Amazing.
58:22
Maybe I have a suggestion. Maybe you give the book to your husband.
58:28
Yeah, I did talk a lot about it. I actually, we went away for a night away. And I took the book, and I read about four or four chapters, or five chapters. And so I did tell him about all this conditioning. And I don't think he also he understands it, because I also was thinking, who's written this kind of book from the man's perspective? Because I think there needs to be the other view, the other conditioning, you know, and that there's a lack of understanding of what we have gone through as women and the conditioning we have.
58:59
Absolutely, absolutely. I think you're completely right. But also, I think we would like to understand the male you know, the male perspective a little bit more. And I think it's very useful for men to understand our perspective. Yeah. And the conditioning imposed on us and the, you know, societal judgement that we face every day, being a woman with a body and just walking around living their own lives, you know, we need to understand that it's difficult, it is difficult. So there's definitely there's definitely room for that. There's definitely more room for conversations more room for understanding. And that's that's how we can grow and get better and
59:50
and break the cycle and make change and yeah,
59:53
I'm happy that you enjoyed it so much.
1:00:00
We had a bit of a tapping session to the day, we did your first ever tapping experience. And we had been in touch about you, you were recording the audio version of the book. And I made a presumption having read the book, that you would be experiencing a resurgence of emotion. And
that's why we decided to kind of get on and do some tapping. How did you find the session? And how have you felt since?
1:00:28
Well, I thought it was very intuitive, insightful, have you to message me and just say, you know, maybe we should do a tapping session, it was exactly what I needed. It was very emotional. It was a really beautiful release of that emotion that I kind of didn't realise was there and needed to come out. It was just so incredible. I really enjoyed it. I'm not I'm a convert now. Yeah. Yeah, that's it. That's it. I am a tapping combat and I, I'm gonna be like passing this gift around to everyone and telling everyone about it. I think it's absolutely wonderful what you do. And also, I'm really surprised by it, like really surprised by it, how can squeezing your fingers have that much effect, it's incredible all just happened on your forehead. I didn't realise how powerful it could be. But actually, it felt great. And there's, you know, since sort of becoming more connected to myself, and more in tune with my feelings, I am now not afraid to get emotional or cry or have very strong sort of visceral reactions to things. And so it was just so, so beautiful. It was a real good release. And I felt so much better. And it's helped me work through some difficult things that I that had been brought up during the audiobook. So I just, I'm just so thankful.
1:02:15
I'm delighted, the yellow, I am passionate about sharing this tool with as many people as possible so they can manage and their own releases that they that they are feeling. And also, I noticed and you talk about it in the book as well. This is the last question. I'm sorry, because I can have you on all day.
1:02:34
I love it.
1:02:36
You've you turned to some spiritual practices as well on on this journey to rediscover yourself and to start to feel more joy and more pleasure. What were those things that you've done? And how did you discover them?
1:02:51
Well, you know, at the start of this interview behind you is a box of ISIS. ISIS. And I noticed that at the very start, because I've got those oracle cards too. Oh, wow. I was like, oh my god, I love this girl because she's a ritual as me. Yep. Yeah, I, again, that's been another kind of slow journey into looking at like the moon and the cycles and the phases, sort of getting some support and feeling like, yeah, so I use crystals as well as support and I do, like, get away negative energy with burning sage and things like that. It's just another one of those really, like proactive things I can do to support my own mental like well being, it makes me feel good. So like I did couldn't I did a retreat and it was Kundalini. And that was that's a breathing practice. I don't know if this comes under the whole
mystical sort of spiritual umbrella. But yeah, that was another sort of healing process that has really helped me and it's just about trying new things and seeing what works for you. And I'm such an inquisitive person that I want to try everything. And I and I love I love learning about new things. I love learning about crystal properties and and like oracle cards and having my Tarot read, you know, yeah, I think it's just just really fun. And it can be used as a wonderful tool to say Put yourself.
1:05:01
Yeah, well, I totally agree. I'm surrounded here with like, I've got Joan of Arc. I've got rainbows. I've got flower elixirs, crystals, candles. This is like, my new little mermaid is a little Schiedam.
1:05:19
Funny you said Joan of Arc. Somebody mentioned Joan of Arc to me when I had a crystal reading recently was around me. Amazing. An angel reading Sorry.
1:05:31
Yeah. Trail. She's a trailblazer isn't she? And she, she used her voice. She stood up, she labs. She changed perspective. You know, and that's what you're doing.
1:05:44
That's amazing. They look at a synchronicity. i Yeah. I love that. That's incredible.
1:05:53
Yeah, she was strong. Yeah, so so powerful.
1:05:59
I love I love it. And I just love like, believing in magic is such a lovely thing to, to believe in. I think the possibilities are endless. And our minds are, you know, there's we probably don't use, I don't know, I probably don't even use 10% of them. I think there's so much more out there to learn. Oh,
1:06:23
totally. And, like, I feel like I'm on this very hungry path where I just can't a constantly buying courses and signing up for things and doing readings for people. And like, I'm just like, give it to me now give it to me. Now I want to know, I want to know everything. And sometimes I have to remind myself to just chill out. Like, there is divine timing, there is a steps to take there is a path and a process and to just take myself off the hook every now and then. But it's such a passion. It's such an interest that it just lights me up. And then I want to know more and more and more.
1:07:00
Yeah, interesting. I love it.
1:07:03
Well, thank you so much for the conversation and for writing the book on behalf of everyone who's going to read it. It's it's brilliant.
1:07:14
Sorry, I'm just, I'm just so made up. I think we had a really lovely conversation. And I've really enjoyed talking to you and your listeners will resonate with what we said. And even if you don't even if you don't agree with everything I say, you know, even if it just stimulates you to think about things, that's that's all I want, you know, we don't all have to have the same thoughts and opinions on things. And that's okay. That's what makes life really interesting. But I thank you for giving me this opportunity in this platform to speak to your listeners and to speak to you. It's been wonderful.
1:07:57
I know. I'm sure we are all so grateful. I'm talking now from on behalf of everybody that listens. But yet so grateful to have a different perspective, someone that's breaking down some internal barriers that I think a lot of us are carrying and having important conversations. And you mentioned, to wrap it up now how you how you get rid of shame is that you talk about stuff and it just dissolves the shame. So there we go.
1:08:23
Exactly shine a light on talk about it feel so scary and so big, that it's this way. And you
1:08:31
know what shame and guilt are the heaviest of emotions that we carry. So therefore they should be the ones that we really want to work on unreleased because they're weighing us down. Yeah, they really
1:08:44
are. They really are. And I think the the road to getting over them is forgiveness. Forgive yourself for feeling shame. Forgive yourself for the things that you experienced or that were done to you. I think that's the best way.
1:09:01
Yeah, brilliant advice. Thank you so much, Natalie. My pleasure.
